Hey folks, here's the thread to talk about AFfC after you've read it. Thus, if you haven't read it yet...

DON'T READ THIS THREAD BECAUSE IT WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS FOR GEORGE R. R. MARTIN'S "A FEAST FOR CROWS"!!!!!!

There... now post away folks!

-Murdock
posted by:
Mike
  • I finished the other day... I thought it was good, but annoying. I knew that a lot of plot lines would not be resolved, but sheesh! I thought there was much less action in this than the previous three, and the action is what sucked me in. What do you think?
    • There was less action, but no less consequences. This was a "payback" kind of book - all the actions from the earlier books are come back to haunt people.

      And there were certainly some surprises and some effective moments in this book as well.

      I also felt like this was the "woman's" book. Sam and Jaime aside, the great majority of the book was told from the view of female characters. An interesting decision, but I suppose he's running low on male characters in Westeros to use for a viewpoint...
      • I really missed the other story lines. I hate to say it, but until about 3/4 of the way through, this one felt like filler to me. I know that statement will make me very unpopular here. When I picked up the first book I was instantly hooked and had to keep going. This one did not have that kind of grab for me. Maybe I need to reread it ...
        • You say "filler" like it's a bad thing.

          This is the book where the actions of the past have consequences. It's also the first "breather" book, where there is no war immediately on the horizon. People are starting to get on with their lives, or what's left of them.
          • What do you think the consequences were? I thought, especially in Cersei's case that her consequences are just beginning at the end of the book, and are not satisfying yet. In ASoS Joffery dropped dead of poison at his wedding. That was amazingly satisfying. I didn't have any experiences like that in this book. Hope they are there in the next one.
      • I also felt like this was very much a woman's book, though I've sort of felt like AGoT was very male centered despite the presence of female characters, and that there has sort of been a slow progression throughout the series towards a somewhat more female perspective. I wonder if that will swing back the other way at any point.

        I also felt like there was more sex in this book, or maybe just more descriptive.
        • The lesbian sex was more descriptive. At the booksigning I went to in Huntington Beach this weekend, GRRM told the girl in line in front of me (she asked him for more explicit sex scenes in the next book) that a woman in NY had specifically requested some steamy male homosexual scenes to balance out the heavy lesbian action. He didn't seem interested in pursuing that though. Just sort of shook his head over it.
  • Y'know, y'all were *warned* that this one was all build-up/"moving the plot along" with no payoff... ;p

    That said, my only real complaint (if I could talk to George & his publishers) is:

    "If you got this one out by splitting what you *already* had into 2 volumes - why wait another year or more for the rest of it???? Give this one 2-3 months alone on the Best Seller lists, then put out the rest of what you have (as ADoD) right away, say by March 1st - THEN start working on whatever's after that!"

    Sigh. At least he says he hopes to have ADoD out within ONE year this time (knock wood & pray to the Muses) - beats the snot out of SEVEN...!!!

    But whatever's after that will probably need at least a full 18 months per volume. Hopefully it won't need too much more than that.

    Don't get me wrong; I spent big chunk of a WorldCon (ConJose) hanging out with George & Parris, & they're Good People(TM), aside from his great talent. I like him a lot, he's a fun & goodhearted guy, *extremely* "fan-friendly." I just wish there were some way for him to speed up the process without sacrificing quality. Like, to a book a year, maybe?

    Just like everyone else does. Le Sigh... ;p
    • *****TOTAL SPOILERS*********

      *******HUGE SPOILERS**********

      *****SERIOUS ABOUT THE SPOILERS******

      **STOP IF YOU HAVEN’T FINISHED THE BOOK**

      **THIS MEANS YOU, SLOW READER***


      I totaled screwed myself on reading this one. After spending a month carefully re-reading all the books in the series in prep for AFfC’s release, and making sure that I didn’t take my amazon.com-shipped copy out of the box before I was done with my ASofS re-read (I didn’t trust myself not to peek)—I put “Cersei Lannister” into the wikipedia.com search field on a whim the day I finished ASofS- hours before I was to start reading AFfC. They had already updated her profile with all of the AFfC info—so the first two sentences, which I skimmed before I realized they were HUGE SPOILERS- said “arrested for plotting to kill her daughter-in-law Margaery” and “living in a fear from a prophecy that says her younger brother will kill her.” ARGGHHHH! Can you even imagine two worse things to read before you opened this book?? So, while I loved the Cersei storyline in this. It was a total anti-climax to me. As I was just reading to see how GRRM got her into the cell, already knowing she was headed there.

      After Cersei, Samwell was my fav POV in this (I love Arya more, but her POV in this was lame in this one). I do think that GRRM is clinging too tightly to Sam’s insecurities. After all he has been through, I think it is really time for the “I’m such a big fat coward” interior monologue to change. Hopefully we are getting there. Am also not sure why after starving for a year on and behind the wall, he is still so fat. Is it a glandual thing? I guess if the Ironborn close off the port at Oldtown and the city has shortages he may get another crash diet. But surely, with all his clothes repeatedly getting baggy, he should be ‘very stout’ now instead called fat by everyone he meets. Anyway, I loved hearing about the Hedge Knight characters from Aemon in his POVs, although I hoped Aemon would reach the citadel or strike off to reach Dany. I hope Gilly is preggers with another of his “bastards” – a real one this time. And am wondering if the broken horn he has been carrying all this time has something to do with the fact his ancestral seat is named Horn Hill? Or is that a coincidence? Am hoping he will find a copy of Septon Barth’s banned works and discover the Ice and Fire prophecy. It was great to see Aemon figure it all out, and crushing that he never got to see Dany. I liked also seeing the allusions to GRRM’s Hedge Knight in this plot line and in Brienne’s (the shield she has painted). I guess I need to read Hedge Knight now when I re-read the books before ADwD comes out (hopefully next year). Egg and Dunc in that have something to do with the destruction of Summerhall- and that figures into Rhaegar and the prophecy.

      Brienne has also been a fav character. But I was a little bored with her in this. Her chapters seemed endless, she kept running into dead ends, and at the end she doesn’t complete her quest at all and it looks like she is going to go off and kill Jaime instead. She has been the girls’ protector for two books now, and it is disappointing to see her not only failing that task (I was so hoping in a book or so she would throw one a door in the Vale, yank Petyr Littlefinger out of Sansa’s bed and geld him) but she’s getting assigned a quest I don’t want to go on. I know she and Jaime were never going to hook up, raise half ugly/half stunning kids on Tarth, and wave cheerily at Dany every time she rode over the island on her dragons. But do they have to try and kill one another again? We already watched that for a whole book. And what is with her backstory? A bet on her maidenhead? And now she wants all those men to die? Other characters have back stories where they vowed revenge because their fathers were roasted alive in their own armor, or small children’s heads were dashed against walls. Her backstory is one I saw in a lousy Freddie Prinze Jr. movie (She’s All That). And she wants bloody vengeance for that? It would have been great to see the ugly duck in the Prinze movie chase him around with a sword, but as I recall, she just pouted for a few hours and then danced with him at prom. Nice to see Pod again, though. I think he will be the foremost knight in the realm if he only lives long enough.

      Sansa was alright. But she has never been the most compelling of the Stark children, has she? I think that this section of the book suffered from the elimination of GRRM’s five year gap. He had intended the events of AFfC to take place 5 years after ASofS. And the events in the Vale would have made sense spread out over 5 years. The Lords Declarant would have had time to come to heel under Petyr’s manipulations. But as it stands, he wins two as instant allies in his first meeting and then the rest just decide never to bother him. He even says to Sansa at one point that he is surprised and displeased that Cersei is running the kingdom into the ground so fast because he had hoped for 4 or 5 years to set things up in the Vale. I think that is really GRRM complaining that he has to rush his Vale set up after eliminating the 5 year gap. Petyr’s reference to the war of the Three Queens makes me think that we are actually headed to a war of five queens (to mirror the war of five kings). With the queens being: Cersei, Margaery, Dany, Sansa, and either Asha or Myrcella—maybe Arianne. That is also probably why the book is becoming a little more feminine in tone right now.

      In Dorne, I liked the possible alliance with Dany that is being set up. I hope that Quentyn Martell is one of her husbands and Jon is the other when all the dust settles after the final battle. Arianne is a painful, whining, selfish brat. I hated being trapped in that tower with her for a whole chapter. I wanted out more than she did! Am wondering if poor, maimed Myrcella will live to use her strategy game skills in the game of thrones? It is not looking likely. I think both she and Tommen will die before Cersei.

      Cersei’s storyline, so unkindly revealed to me before I opened the book, was really awesome. I love it that it has never occurred to her that as the firstborn of the Lannister twins she has two little brothers and not one. I almost feel sorry for her. Things are clearly not going to end well for her. I am hoping that she takes the high septon down with her if she can.

      Edmure in the bathtub listening to the Rains of Castlemere really got me. Shades of the red wedding. That is the story I fell in love with and can’t stop re-reading. I almost feel sorry for that stupid horse’s *ss. I can’t believe that while Robb and Cat were dying (and I was sobbing!) That idiot was actually consummating the wedding! And now Roslyn is pregnant and Robb’s Queen Jeyne was prevented from conceiving by her evil mother! ARGHH! I also love it that Walder Frey is down two heirs already. Go Stoneheart. I think if there is ever a video game version of the books, you should be able to hunt and kill Freys as part of it.

      Arya’s my hands down fav, so it was nice to see her in the book at little at least. GRRM says she will also be in the next book, so hopefully her storyline picks up. I am okay with her training to be a Faceless Man (Woman?), but am not okay with her having to give up her Arya-ness to do it. At least she didn’t throw Needle into the canal like I feared she would. I really want her to get going on some revenge. I think her storyline definitely suffers from the elimination of the gap. GRRM obviously wanted to just cut to five years later when she is a kick-ass Faceless Person. So this is all Karate Kid-style training to be a ninja filler. I like still touching base with her, though, so no serious complaints.

      Next book should be the heavy hitter with Tyrion, Jon, Bran, Davos, more Arya, and Dany. That book certainly seems to be weighted with more heavy hitters. GRRM says it will follow the same timeframe and AFfC and go a little further timewise.

      I went to a book signing in Huntington Beach with GRRM this weekend and he said the following (paraphrased not verbatim)

      “I have 600 pages to write on A Dance With Dragons. I hope to finish fall of 2006 and have the book out in 2006.”
      When asked if he would release a pronunciation guide for character names “I don’t think so. I’m from New Jersey, you know, and half the time I don’t think I’m pronouncing them right myself.” He went on to say that the audio books get most of the names right, although they did not ask him to clarify simple names so in some instances they say things like Pee-TIRE for Petyr, even though he just intended it to be an alternate spelling for Peter.
      “You will learn a little bit about the fall of Valyria in the next few books in bits and pieces but not the full story.”
      “The 5 year gap was a stupid idea. It worked great for the kids, but I found myself writing chapters for characters like Jon that went “Well, I’ve been Lord Commander of the wall for five years now. Nothing much has happened. Been pretty quiet, really.” And it just didn’t work at all.”
      “I am a gardener. I plant seeds and grow the story from them. I am not an architect who lays out a foundation, and then plans walls and plumbing and electrical work. I just water and watch it grow.”
      When asked how much of the back story (i.e., Robert’s rebellion, fall of Valyria, etc.) he knew before he wrote the first chapter: “None of it. I discovered it all while writing.”
      “The Reach is the most populous area of Westeros and can field the most troops. But never believe any troop estimates you see in the books. They all are incorrect and they vary from account to account. I did this intentionally so that you would not have better information than the characters, who are getting their information from inaccurate or biased sources.”
      “Tyrion is the character most like me, but don’t think that makes him safe.”
      • More from loquacious little me. You are the only people I know who are interested in talking about the book, so I have to inflict all of my opinions on you until I can coherce some friends into reading it.

        I noticed after looked at some of the topic threads that I complete forgot to mention the Iron Island segments in my previous post. I think they just bored me that much. I forgot that whole subplot quickly after reading it. Asha was a completely different character in this than the girl we met in ASofS. Subdued, less iron and more tin. Am vaguely interested in Euron's (is that his name?) plot to steal the dragons. I no longer think that Asha deserves to lead them though (turnips in the treasure chest??). So I can't get too interested in how that develops. I wish there had been less Iron Island and more Arya.
      • Ah...that's what you get for hunting down spoilers...I hadn't even read the online preview chapters, I so didn't want to be spoiled.

        I didn't think Brienne was actively seeking revenge against those men. I think it was more a karmic hatred; that she wanted them to suffer at the hands of fate, not hers. I'll tell you, I didn't even make the shield connection between her and Dunc. Shame on me.

        The next book may contain more Davos, but not very much. As we learned, he does not come to a happy end at all. That very much bums me out.

        But why am I surprised? The way to live in this universe is not to be a sympathetic character...

        And I still can't feel sorry for Cersei...
        • I doubt that Davos is really dead. A Manderly son was slain at the Red Wedding and i doubt that White Harbor would be so accomodating to the people who orchestrated it all.

          That said, this area is my one big disappointment in this book - no talk of what is going on behind the scenes with Robb's faithful bannermen. Maege Mormont, the Manderlys, the Mallisters, etc, and especially Howland Reed! I'm absolutely dying to hear from that guy. What, we heard about some poison arrows bothering the Ironmen at Moat Cailen. That's it. I'm real bummed. I want a taste of vengeance, or resistance at least - and not just some random hangings by Stonefaced Angry-as-hell Zombie Catelyn.

          By the way, what do you think Brienne screamed at the end? I doubt the word was "OKAY!" like she's agreeing to go slay Jaime. I think it might have been "ARYA!"

          All in all i liked the book, of course, although, what, it took place over the span of a month? Not five years, hello. God, i loved when Ser Osney spilled the beans. "Aye. That one there. She's the queen i fucked . . ." And later, those awesome words, "No," he said, "Put this in the fire." Yeah, fuck her.
          • Unsu...
             
            Yeah, I too really hope Davos is not dead. I know he has a POV in ADwD but that doesn't mean that he's alive. But I have to keep the faith he's one of my favorite POVs!
            As for Robb's bannerman it would have been nice to see what came of them but hopefully we'll get some small glimpse in the next book?
            Anyone else have any theories about Brienne's last word? I like Arya as a choice. But could that have been enough to save her? Maybe she took the other option and yelled "sword?"
            • Ok somebody help me. Brienne isnt dead is she? And for some reason, it escaped me in the last book about Catelyn. I thought she didnt die but was gravely injured and disfigured. But she DID die and someone brought her to life? ANd I wont be surprized if Cersei wriggles out of this mess she so deservedly is in somehow.


              I like the way George rr martin can kill off main charactors. But I hate it too, I am afraid to get attached to anyone lest I lose them. Just like real life.
              • No, don't think Brienne is dead. In fact i don't think she'll die for a long time, if ever in this story. She's bound to be one of the great heroes of this epoch. Martin may put her through absolute hell, but, let's face it, he has to give us something more for her. He can't deviate THAT MUCH from what we expect as rooters for the good guy.

                It's true that he has lots of lives to play with, but, remember, not only is this story but part of a long history of legendary names and deeds in this world; this is the big story, the one he's telling! What happens in this time is the most important, and should dwarf all the other stories of heroism and intrigue and conquest and end of the world hoo-ha all the way back to old Valyria and the Great Doom. The greatest heroes, and worst villains, of all time will be made in this Song of Ice and Fire.

                No, Brienne still has much to do . . .

                . . . and i think the Hound has yet some role to play, somehow (leave it up to Martin), too.
                • I think Brienne is dead.

                  And, yes, Cat died at the Red Wedding, and was brought back to life by the Red Priest, in the same way Dondarrion kept being brought back to life.

                  I also think the Hound is dead as well, and all the tales you hear are simply based on the sighting of his armor.

                  The future of the Tullys at Riverrun should be interesting, given Tom O'Sevens seems like he'll become a favorite there...
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    I'm fairly certain that Sandor is the grave digger that Brienne sees when they are at the Quiet Isle. Brienne notes that he is bigger than she and with an injured leg. The guy that Brienne talks to says the Hound is gone, but he doesn't actually say he's dead (if I recall, it's been a bit since I read it). Whomever has the helm will masquerade as the Hound, but Sandor is still around too.

                    As for Brienne, I don't think she's necessarily dead, but George being George you never know.
                    • Wow, i gotta go back and read that!

                      Wow!
                      • Unsu...
                         
                        I don't think Brienne is dead yet...but it's always possible we're all wrong. If she isn't I think she may have yelled "sword" to imply that she would kill Jaime, maybe to buy her some time to convince Catelyn that he has changed.

                        As for Catelyn coming back to life it was actually Beric himself that gave her the kiss of life. The Red Priest was too afraid to do it since she had been dead for days and he felt it was too long. So the flame of life passed from Beric to Catelyn and so was born Lady Stoneheart.

                        Long live The Hound! Ok not the hound Sandor...I too believe that he is not dead. Jack was correct when he wrote in his post that The Elder Brother did not say he was dead but "at rest" and the Elder Brother himself admitted to dying on the trident and being reborn when he was found at the Queit Isle maybe he is helping Sandor do the same? As for the Hound's helm it went from Sandor, to Rorge then finally to Lem. All three would take on the persona of the "Hound."

                        I can't wait to see what GRRM has in store for us in ADWD? :)

                        BTW, anyone have any theories about Mycella? And what's wrong with her is she dying, wounded beyond recognition, no nose? Any thoughts?
  • So i finished reading the book a couple weeks back. Something's been eating at me... One of the things that broke my heart the most is when Arya had to break away from her wolf (nymeria).

    And in the books often when there is a POV in the general area where she did it, he keeps mentioning stuff about a freakishly big she-wolf leading a pack of wolf. Hell, Arya even has another wolf dream. The suspense is killing me!!!!

    So, will arya ever re-unite with nymeria? Will the wolves simply responsible for much mayhem (the winter will be a time of food scarsity, and the wolves might decide to feast on humans).

    And what's with arya waking up blind???
    • Unsu...
       
      I'm hoping the blindness is just temporary. Maybe the faceless man is trying to teach her a lesson since she is now supposed to be Cat of the canals not Arya Stark?
      • Unsu...
         
        Thanks to Rachel,

        I finally finished the book. It took longer than I expected and took my getting sick to finally get enough time to actually read it through but it's done.

        It is my hope that Arya does regain her sight and I do believe that she will be reunited with Nymeria at some point. While so many have cause to want Cersei dead, it has always been my hope that Arya would be the one to stick Needle in her. However, the fact that Cersei appears to be about to get some of what is coming to her makes me just as happy. I don't understand Cersei's appeal for some people. She is not only dangerous but stupid as most power hungry fools are. Look at our current administration if you need an examble.
        I somehow suspect though that Tyrion will emerge in this thread of the story to actually kill his bitch sister. Whatever happens to Cersei, I do hope that it is both psychologically and physically painful and lasts a very long time. Bloodthirsty? Maybe a little. I'm of primarily Celtic stock and I do believe punishments should fit the crime. Cersei has too many at this point to pay for all of them.

        I think Joanna Lannister's foreshadowing to Jaime may prove poignant in the books ahead. Brienne will no doubt agree to kill Jaime which would be no great loss IMO. I still hate Cersei and Jaime for what they did to Bran. Bran being another loose end so far with little storyline to keep even his memory alive. I do hope GRRM finds time in the next novel to explore Bran's story more.

        I'm rather hoping that Sansa/Alayne cuts off Petyr's littlefinger at some point. He may prove useful but he's such a napoleanized character in some respects that I can't help but loathe him. His plan to bring Sansa back into the limelight has some foreshadowing of new crises to come.

        I was glad to see Edmure Tully saved and the Blackfish escaped. The entire Frey line could be destroyed with me cheering on the sidelines. I rather hope that when Dani makes it finally to Westeros, she will be the one to take them all out, root , stock and branch.

        I wonder how much longer Myrcella will be used or be able to be used as a pawn too. Not much to go on there except when the Mountain's skull is delivered to Prince Doran, that will likely blow up as well. Too little information to tell for sure but I'm sure it will be interesting.

        I really want Winterfell restored. I want the Stark's to regain primacy in the region. The story started out with them and I want it to end with them at least returning to their home and the Godwood. I want Dani to prevail as well but the Stark's have been through so much hell, some of them must survive.
        • Somehow I doubt Brienne would kill Jaime. She seems to have grown fond of him. And he of her. Might not be love, but def a friendship...

          If you ask me, Jaime is a changed man since he lost his hand. He was able to seize the tully castle (I forget the name) without spilling blood. I think when he was still 2 handed he would've just stormed the thing. He suddenly got to see just how horrible his siter is. I really wonder if he will rise up to cersei's call to champion for her.

          Arya.. I was thinking that she might become MORE now that she is blind (temporary or not). When you lose one of your senses, the rest of them get stronger. That would fit right in with the teachings of Syrio Forel (don't remember if that's how you spell his name).

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