After reading the fourth novel, I am convinced that GRRM is inverting the fantasy genre. Part of me is going to be disappointed if this has a heroic ending that redeams it all. The fourth novel strikes me as deeply fatalistic, with plotlines that simply dead-end for the characters involved. I appreciate this a lot, it shows a mastery of craft that I feel like Song of Ice and Fire both fulfills the genre better than any other I have read, and complete disrupts its base assumptions about heroism, good verses evil, honor, etc. Thoughts?
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Austin
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Unsu...
Re: Anti-fantasy
Thu, December 8, 2005 - 10:43 AMGRRM has broken ground with this series. While part of me wants to see the 'good' guys win, that isn't the world at large either there or here. It is a true storyteller who can tell a tale in all it's glory, with nothiing left out or 'edited' for historians to debate over. Too bad we dont' have that kind of honesty and bardic quality to our own histories in THIS world. I do want Jon to overcome all his adversities, I do want Cersei to be publicly whipped and reviled for her crimes, but it's not my story and not my world. I'm here for the ride and no matter how it ends, it's been pretty fantastic. -
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Re: Anti-fantasy
Fri, December 9, 2005 - 1:10 PMWell, there are no good guys and bad guys here, there are some who are more or less honorable or more or less conniving, but everyone has good and bad points. Except maybe Cersei, and she will get away because Dany gets to kill her. At least thats my guess from the prophecy. Personally, I've always liked Dany best. Then John Snow, and theres will be the big clash; A song of Fire (Dany) & Ice (Snow). -
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Unsu...
Re: Anti-fantasy
Fri, December 9, 2005 - 1:57 PM"I've always liked Dany best. Then John Snow, and theres will be the big clash; A song of Fire (Dany) & Ice (Snow). more ยป "
Or possibly a blending of some sort............................ Who really knows the mind of GRRM? lol After all, a song is usually a blending of melody and harmony. -
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Re: Anti-fantasy
Fri, December 9, 2005 - 2:40 PMI have always envisioned the Song of Ice and Fire to be many things, Dragon Breath belched forth onto the Wall, the mystery of the seasons as well as the temperature of various passions.
Skott
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Re: Anti-fantasy
Fri, December 9, 2005 - 5:25 PMromance, there will be romance between Ice and Fire.
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Re: Anti-fantasy *possible spoiler*
Fri, December 9, 2005 - 5:33 PMYes, the world is ambiguous--and not with just who is good or bad, but whether honorable, just actions bring you good results or not. After the fourth book, I see the Faith of the Seven (and perhaps of others) becoming increasingly important, and perhaps even the Maesters. I am beginning to wonder if GRRM is actually writing a series about the transition out of a feudal political system -- a friend of mine has advocated for some time that the song of ice and fire will end in something like a republic, and I am beginning to wonder if that is the case. The feudal apparatus is pretty much in shambles by now, and even if Dany shows up with her dragons to pull it all together, many of the basic presuppositions, the relations between the royal houses and the smallfolk, have been destroyed. It may be that the Faith, the Maesters, the alchemists, and all the other civil institutions will gain even stronger positions in the social structure such that the power of the great houses, even the dragon lords, fades.
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Re: Anti-fantasy
Wed, April 5, 2006 - 4:00 AMMy own take is this:
That there will probably be *neither* a perfectly (or even predominantly) heroic ending nor a perfectly (or predominantly) nihilistic one, but rather, a mix of the 2 that is as ambiguous as the series, & many of the main characters, have been thus far. I don't think GRRM is on some suicide-goth-y quest to "destroy conventional fantasy" - but he might well be out to re-make it. And he might well do so (IMHO, he has already made quite a good start!), whether that's his intention or not. O:-)
Some good guys will probably win...after a fashion. (I am personally rooting for Jon Snow & the remaining Stark boys, Arya, Dany, Tyrion, Brienne, & Sam Tarly; but I am prepared to be much disappointed - & I *expect* them all to suffer a great deal before any conclusion is reached. I'm also inordinately fond of the Umbers, & the Ladies of Bear Island, for some reason...)
But while (some of) the ostensible good guys may win, it is unlikely to be a "complete" victory for any of them, & perhaps not to the result they had hoped for.
It also seems likely that some bad guys will win, or at least escape - possibly with little or no punishment (though I deeply hope the Red Woman & Cersei get to suffer all they've made others suffer & more, I am again prepared to find things other than as I'd wish).
Some folks we initially thought of as largely more good than bad, or vice-versa, will turn out to be, or (more likely) wind up becoming, in the course of things, quite the opposite. There will probably be *some* crumbs tossed to the lovers of old-fashioned happy endings - but little more than that.
I also hope to see greater & greater magics, and perhaps the awakening of the Old Gods & the Children (probably just the kid in me) - but, while I hope, I do not *expect* those things.
Basically, with George, it seems best to enjoy all sorts of conjecture - but to never get too attached to any particular theory, as whatever it may be, it will probably be wrong. ;-) -
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Re: Anti-fantasy
Wed, July 2, 2008 - 7:40 AMIt seems to me like he is showing a transition here, but I think it's from a low-magic fatalistic world to a hopeful, high-magic world. I don't partuclarly like 'high fantasy', but he seems to be picking up speed toward that in every book (1-birth of dragons, 2 - red witch, 3 - unkillable heroes [ Lighning Lord, Lady Stoneheart], 4 - academy of maesters with prophecy, etc.).
There was a part in book one when Old Nan is telling Bran a story of the long winter and mentions wights and other monsters. It seems she was trying to scare him, but I think it was a set up, sort of "this is where we're headed as winter is coming", and there's the referrals to the knights of summer, children born in the summer . . . Magic is increasing once more during the cold 'night' before the dawn! There will be a final confrontation between Ice and Fire (which may nullify them both ["ice preserves while fire only consumes"] that will issue in the an endless spring/summer.
There are tons of references to this from every angle. Bran's direwolf is Summer, the last book is called "A Dream of Spring", the knight called the Lord of the Morning with his sword Dawn (which I believe is the proper Westeros translation for Ahor Azai's sword Lightbringer). I don't think 'good' or 'evil' will win in the philosophic sense, but that the gods themselves will be destroyed and the world will them be in the hands of mortals forever after.
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